Loading Wrist Slap

[Decker]

Whoops [:#]

Oh I hope the Upper Class pax weren't asked to move to the back of the bus, that wouldn't be funny at all! [}:)]

[Nottingham Nick]

It is comforting to know that there are lots of clever people looking after out welfare while we are up there.[8D];)

Nick

Well I rekon that'll be the duty free I carry on. You see, I have an honest face and never get pulled up, so it would be rude not to carry on a few extra bottles; wouldn't it?

Mind you, HMCE probably lurk here. So that's me scuppered - Doh!

Still better than this though

{mcuth: edited to shorten link}

Oh dear! British scareways - Frights on the hour, every hour.

I must say, even though we have a wee giggle on here about BA I did NOT expect this of them.


Regards

John

[ChuckC]

I am glad that, as Nottingham Nick says, someone's watching this issue. Have been on flights where I've been asked to move ... after the aircraft departed.

Chuck-

This is a little disconcerting, let's just hope Virgin fix this little problem soon.

Had an interesting and possibly related experience recently. Turned
up at checkin for VS200 to Hong Kong last month and was told I had
to wait as they couldn't check me in yet (this was c.2h before
take-off). They explained that they were having problems evening
out the load in the plane and were only checking in Economy passengers
first. Anyone in Premium (like me) and Upper had to wait a while.
After about 15 mins wait, they checked us in. On the flight,
Upper and Premium were completely full but Economy loading was
very light. Maybe they were worried that there weren't enough
people at the back of the plane to balance all the people at the
front?

Never had this happen before but it could be related to this
thread...

Chirs

Here's a link to the AAIB report:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resource ... G-VSHY.pdf

Out of interest, when was it that VS outsourced their loadplanning? Co-incident dates, or has it always been this bad?

All I can say is that's what happens when you outsource to corporations who pay peanuts, and work their staff to the point of exhaustion.

See the NTSB report on errored loading of VS56 in 2004:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 0657&key=1

While this incident wasn't due to the incorrect load planning of the flight and the flight was completed incident free, the outsorced handler botched the loading, due to a combination of likely fatigue and failure to follow procedure, while the VS employee who should have been overseeing the whole process seemed to be frequently diverted away by other things while trying to deal with safety critical duties.

That one VS employee was expected to oversee and sign off on several outsourced parties - cleaners, caterers, maintenance, ramp service and God knows what else.

I guess this is different again now, as there's only a Virgin-employed duty manager at the US stations and everything else is outsourced. I wonder where the buck stops now?

To paraphrase NN, who is looking out for our safety, if there isn't a traceable line of command and responsibility?

Mike

On our return flight VS76 on 14/12 which was only about half full. An announcement was made just after take off saying "even though there are a lot of empty seats on this flight it is very important that passengers do not move from their assigned seats under any circumstances with out being asked to by a member of the cabin crew." They sounded pretty serious too!

I have been on empty flights before and they have been quite happy for us to move around.

Neil.

[ChuckC]

Originally posted by mike-smashing

... To paraphrase NN, who is looking out for our safety, if there isn't a traceable line of command and responsibility?

Mike

Mike,
Some excellent points you make. If you should speak with anyone at VS obviously we'd like to know the response. The whole outsourcing thing has understandably created much resentment (for good reason) and stories like this, even if rare, are very disconcerting.

Chuck-

On my last flight (VS046 JFK - LHR in early December), during boarding, a FA asked all pax to sit in their allocated seats.

How does one know that the aircraft centre of gravity has moved???

Originally posted by csparker
How does one know that the aircraft centre of gravity has moved???

When the pilot rotates, the tail hits the ground with a thump.

Originally posted by sailor99

Originally posted by csparker
How does one know that the aircraft centre of gravity has moved???

When the pilot rotates, the tail hits the ground with a thump.

Or, like the Emirates A340 incident at JNB, when you try to rotate, and find you can't - in that incident, the aircraft was actually heavier than had been entered on the loadsheet, and therefore the calculated V-speeds were lower than required, as was the FLEX take off thrust.

The aircraft eventually got airborne following application of TO/GA thrust and runway overrun, causing damage to the approach lighting system, aircraft undercarriage, hydraulic system and flaps.

After dumping fuel, the aircraft returned to JNB for an emergency landing, which was successful apart from the brakes failing, requiring the aircraft being brought to an eventual stop using spoilers and reverse thrust only.

Fortunately, Lady Luck was smiling on the crew and passengers that day, and there were no injuries or loss of life, but this story re-affirms the serious consequences of incorrect load planning and aircraft loading.

Mike

well this certainly boost my confidence in air travel[:#]. Im a really bad flyer at the best of times and im due to fly to mco from man on mon. i know its a full flight and so we wont be asked to move. but the question im asking if anyone knows is will they know if the plane is over weight.
thanks
Tony

[preiffer]

The plane is actually capable of calculating it's C.G. mid-flight.

[honey lamb]

One of the reasons that check-in closes an hour before the flight is the massive activity that then takes place in respect of weight, balance etc. I often wondered why the aircraft was only refuelling while we were boarding instead of being ready to roll until it was explained to me that the amount of fuel was calculated by the number of passengers, luggage, cargo etc.

When Aer John and I were at the Grove earlier this year the Director of Flight Operations was very interesting in explaining it to us

This is exactly why I get annoyed with the pax who turn up 5 minutes before a flight and expect to be checked-in. Do these people just not realise what meticulous planning goes into getting a plane airborne?

Or, like the Emirates A340 incident at JNB, when you try to rotate, and find you can't - in that incident, the aircraft was actually heavier than had been entered on the loadsheet, and therefore the calculated V-speeds were lower than required, as was the FLEX take off thrust.

The aircraft eventually got airborne following application of TO/GA thrust and runway overrun, causing damage to the approach lighting system, aircraft undercarriage, hydraulic system and flaps.

After dumping fuel, the aircraft returned to JNB for an emergency landing, which was successful apart from the brakes failing, requiring the aircraft being brought to an eventual stop using spoilers and reverse thrust only.

Fortunately, Lady Luck was smiling on the crew and passengers that day, and there were no injuries or loss of life, but this story re-affirms the serious consequences of incorrect load planning and aircraft loading.

I was there the day this happened - there was also another incident as well, but I can't remember it just now.
It had been very hot at the time, so a long roll-out is expected.

Cheers,
VS045

All modern passenger aircraft can calculate thier own centre of gravity. Its worth remembering that there are other heavy things loaded onto a plane other than passengers - fuel, luggage and cargo. The aircraft can have its c of g adjusted by where the these three are positioned so someone turning up late to check in is unlikely to have any significant effect - however - many passengers moving to empty seats can have an effect - depending on the already made caculations for cargo, fuel and baggage - and even then fuel can be pumped around the aircraft to keep the c of g in place - unless of course the plane is nearing the end of its flight when fuel is at its lowest level.

So ultimately c of g depends upon a number of things - and I guess it would be difficult for a passenger to tell if there was a problem!!