Amex chip+pin

[mitchja]

It looks like Amex are now switching over to chip+pin for their charge cards.

I've just received my PIN today so I guess my new gold charge card with a chip on it is on it's way.

Regards

[Bazz]

We recently received our replacement Centurion cards, when I chased these back in mid December I was informed the new issue would be Chip & Pin. A week or so after they arrived I called to ask what was happening with the allocation of the PIN and was told they would be sent out shortly.

The PIN not having arrived some 10 days later, I called again and this time was told "...if the Centurion card had a 'Valid from' date as well as the expiry date they were not C&P and that Amex was introducing C&P later in the year... (2006) ...in the meantime if after the end of January I experienced problems with a merchant insisting on my PIN I was to get said merchant to call Amex".

Seems like this is a real headache for Amex, can't really understand why it should be harder for them to implement than any other card issuer but hey ho.

[Decker]

Well Mrs D and I received our new cards over Xmas. Her's has a Valid Thru and a PIN - mine has a valid from and no PIN.

Concur with Decker - I got my new card last week, no chip, no pin.

[Bazz]

All of mine, Primary, AC and Supplementary have 'Valid Thru' and show start and finish dates, all are chipped, but, I am informed, only for use with Cash Dispensers, it not being a C&P chip.

The impression I got was that the cards that have a start date embossed on them are not C&P which, when available will only show the expiry date. I guess time will tell [:?]

[Decker]

Yup her's is pinned apparently...

[preiffer]

Mine has a chip. What's quite worrying is that John Lewis, etc. are already warning customers who don't have a pin that they won't be accepting their cards beyond the official deadline in Feb.

I wonder what'll happen to Amex holders without a chip.. [?]

[Nottingham Nick]

Originally posted by preiffer

I wonder what'll happen to Amex holders without a chip.. [?]

Oh no.... Richard will have to pay cash for his breakfast. [}:)];)

Sorry, going OT again [:I]

Nick

Originally posted by preiffer
Mine has a chip. What's quite worrying is that John Lewis, etc. are already warning customers who don't have a pin that they won't be accepting their cards beyond the official deadline in Feb.

I wonder what'll happen to Amex holders without a chip.. [?]

I believe when they swipe the card it can tell if it's a chip+pin, or not. Your bank can still issue chip+sign cards and the machines spot them and inform the cashier they need a signature, not a PIN.

We got our new Centurion cards through last week and they have no start date but they DO have a chip which, as I can attest after filling up the car on the way home, is of the Chip and PIN variety.

BC

I got a new Platinum Amex card in December and it has a pin.

I must say that I have had a couple of problems with it. Not sure if they have been down to the retailer but two places (Thorntons chocolates and an Esso garage) would not accept it as the computers said it was invalid or expired!

[Bazz]

Originally posted by BlackCat
We got our new Centurion cards through last week and they have no start date but they DO have a chip which, as I can attest after filling up the car on the way home, is of the Chip and PIN variety.

BC

Sounds like the information I was eventually given is correct then BC.

[RichardMannion]

Having being talking about Chip and Pin today in the office, I thought I would give AmEx a call for an update, talk about make a process difficult.

The usual 'Amex is rolling out Chip and PIN on a gradual basis' spiel - my issue is that the person that is likely to serve me in some establisments won't be the most gifted indiviual and will see a chip and then refuse the card when it doesn't ask for a PIN. Try explaining that to AmEx - goodness. So I asked how they are processing the 'gradual' roll out as I don't want to have to waste my time at merchants arguing the toss and making them call up AmEx (Christ the last AmEx auth call I was made to do was via Kuala Lumpur), so I am told they are doing them as cards come up for renewal or need to be replaced due to it being stolen or lost. So I have simply told them, stop my AC card and send me a new C+P enabled card and a PIN to go with it. Done. Its not as if they haven't had enough time to do this themselves now is it?

BTW, the PIN is unique for each piece of plastic so it is a different code for your basic card and your AC card - though you can of course change the PIN number.

And way OT I know, but I still fail to see how exactly this is going to cut down on fraud - I remember reading a report that backed my thoughts up, basically its shifting one area of fraud loss into another. Now a rocket scientist would have simply left the system as it was and not meant all this hassle, and just had a nice clear colour photo of you placed on the back of the card that would have really eliminated fraud down but you know why this wasn't done? Because it would have been the card issuers that had to pay all this cost, instead they get to balance the cost by making the reatilers pay for new C+P terminals instead.

Thanks,
Richard

[mitchja]

I really dont like it when I'm at the till now and have to enter my PIN with someone standing behind me.

BTW Feb 14th is the cut off date, after which, if you have a chip+PIN card you must enter the PIN otherwise you wont be able to use the card.

Regards

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by mitchja

BTW Feb 14th is the cut off date, after which, if you have a chip+PIN card you must enter the PIN otherwise you wont be able to use the card.

Regards

Hence my issue, Centurion cards in the UK have had a 'chip' in them since inception (March 99) but of different guises - first lot had data on the benefits of Centurion stored on the chip and would not work in a C+P terminal, 2nd generation look exactly the smae but do read in a C+P terminal but will generate a printout requiring signature, and new generation are true C+P. Now how is your average joe in a shop going to take it when someone uses a 2nd gen card and it asks for a signature and their supervisor has told them they only now accept chip and PIN?

Saturday Boy 1 AmEx 0

Thanks,
Richard

I got the AMEX Gold charge card for the bonus miles last summer and am still without chip and PIN, but the Platinum I got in December on hubby's account has it.

Called AMEX and they have a recorded message to say all will be replaced before the fast-approchaing date. Great, another number to remember! [:(]

Jacq

[mitchja]

I think, if you currently have a card which is not Chip+PIN you will still be able to sign. It's only if you have a C+P card then after Feb 14th you will only be able to enter a PIN and will not be able to sign.

Regards

[preiffer]

... unless you blow the IC up, with a large electrical current, so I've discovered. [:I]

THEN, the card returns a "chip error", and you're allowed to sign [y]

[mitchja]

Paul

Dare I ask how you managed that?

Regards

Must say Im far from happy. I dont feel that C+P is safer , i actually feel unsafer - just the same as I shield the keypad @ an atm.
Someone sees me enter my pin - they get my card , how can I prove purchases werent me?? At least with signature-option I could prove it wasnt my signature in the event of a fraud.
As someone who worked in a store through Uni (and very much so as a consumer since!) - the principal problem with signature system is the inability of staff to check the signature against the card.

As my other cards were upgraded to C+P ive simply stopped using them - unless its an online purchase or balance transfer!
AMEX have been the saving grace for me with their refusal to change their trademark cards over to C+P. For the last 11 months Ive pretty much only used my Amex & Im not sure the extra benefits I pay for will be worth keeping the card should I have a C+P forced on me (my card doesnt expire until 02/08 , so there is hope it will take another 2 years .
Surely at the end of the day I the customer should have the say over the security of my card? Surely a company like Amex could turn round with its signature cards & offer the customer the choice of a C+P or a chipless card? No?

As someone who works for the evil Wal-Mart empire, I have to add my thoughts on Chip & PIN...

Must say Im far from happy. I dont feel that C+P is safer , i actually feel unsafer - just the same as I shield the keypad @ an atm.

Although people may not "feel" that C+P is as safe as a signature, it is - and the reason has nothing to do with people 'shoulder surfing' you at a C+P terminal or a cashpoint and nicking your card.

Think about where the majority of people use their cards most often - supermarkets and petrol stations. (Or pubs in my case!)

Your average checkout person serves around 120 customers per shift. In the "good old days" I could have nicked a card from a handbag/ car/ house and signed "Mr.M Mouse" and about 70% of the time the checkout operator would not have noticed.

Now, there is no element of human error involved - if the number is one digit out, the card is declined.

The thief used to only need the card and a pen, now he or she needs the card and the PIN number.

At least with signature-option I could prove it wasnt my signature in the event of a fraud.

The problem of 'proving' who signed for goods was always there - even with signatures. Just spend a few minutes looking at customers attempts to reproduce an 'accurate' copy of their own signatures on their own cards!

Now a rocket scientist would have simply left the system as it was and not meant all this hassle, and just had a nice clear colour photo of you placed on the back of the card that would have really eliminated fraud down but you know why this wasn't done? Because it would have been the card issuers that had to pay all this cost, instead they get to balance the cost by making the reatilers pay for new C+P terminals instead.

Spot on! Many of the larger retailers have been putting pressure on card issuers for years to do this, but the cost always seems to be the main issue.

That's better, had a good moan - now I can rest![|)]

I'm happy with chip and pin - they were using this on continental Europe long before it got to the UK - but the point raised about if you should input your PIN wrongly is a good one - as many places will no longer allow signature after 14th Feb, would this then mean a refusal, or should the establishment then refer to the bank concerned? I somehow doubt the latter being the case - I've had issues in the past with some places - namely Marks and Spencer. I was paying for currency with my switch card - which is a similar thing - and it was refused. I was confused, as I knew there were more than enough funds to cover the transaction. M & S refused to contact my bank, which meant all I could do was go home and call them myself - only to be told there no problems with my card, they could see no reason for the refusal, and more importantly, that the onus is on the establishment to refer to bank. Clearly they do not know or simply choose not to do so....

And this was just before chip and PIN - I imagine it's not going to improve now....

I think it depends on the response from the card issuer via the terminal. For example, if the C+P terminal returns the message "not authorised" then the card issuer has already refused the transaction. If the terminal says "declined" this can mean that the retailer has declined the transaction (decided by a computer - not a person)

Being "declined" can happen for all sorts of reasons and most retailers will try to find out the reason by contacting the card issuer. (Some will "ring for authorisation") Sometimes this is just a random security check, but if a store is busy, or the staff are poorly trained (what, in M&S - never!)then they may just refuse to serve you - even though a quick call would sort it out 9 times out of 10!

The only major problem is when the terminal states, "retain card" This usually means that the card has been reported stolen or lost, but card issuers do get this wrong sometimes and the retailer has to keep the card and tell the customer to contact their bank.

I have seen store staff attacked when this happens! [B)]

Another thing to consider is that most C+P terminals will allow you 3 attempts to enter your PIN whereas a person would not let you try and sign 3 times!

Irrelevent whether or not its safer, I personally dont like it & as the user of the card surely my views over my safety matter most (dont seem to have ever been consulted over what I want). Ive actually deliberately used my chequebook (yes you still get them!) to avoid using C+P.
I do have a very disctinct signature that is very hard to replicate, but the old addage springs to mind (darn CSI[:(!]) - if the signature IS an exact match, it is MORE likely to be a forgery.

Bottom line - C+P is a cost saving measure for retailers under the guise of "added security".... Just stop & think for a minute how much money retailers will save on "admin" costs by not needing tonnes of dockets (ok, this isnt a bad thing for the environment, but nevertheless - its all about money)...

Yes, for many people there is an added feeling of security - especially about not handing the card to the retailer, not not mention it being harder for a card to be cloned (under the fraudsters come up with something). For me (and many more) there is no such feeling.

Bottom line - C+P is a cost saving measure for retailers under the guise of "added security".... Just stop & think for a minute how much money retailers will save on "admin" costs by not needing tonnes of dockets (ok, this isnt a bad thing for the environment, but nevertheless - its all about money)...

No cost issue, all the modern terminals spit out the same receipt for C&P or signature.